is a new MSYS DTK planned ?

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is a new MSYS DTK planned ?

Vincent Torri-2

hey,

the question is in the subject

thank you

Vincent Torri

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Re: is a new MSYS DTK planned ?

Charles Wilson-8
Not as such, no. All of the components of a new DTK are already
available from the MinGW download site as separate packages, but we are
moving away from such "monolithic" mega-packages like the old MSYS DTK.
Eventually a new installer program will be available that will enable
you to easily download and install of these smaller components
(currently, your only recourse is a painful manual process).

The new installer may (or may not) have a "MSYS DTK" ``profile'' that
would, with one click, install all of the components of the original
DTK. Dunno.

--
Chuck

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Re: is a new MSYS DTK planned ?

Vincent Torri-2


On Sun, 27 Sep 2009, Charles Wilson wrote:

> Not as such, no. All of the components of a new DTK are already
> available from the MinGW download site as separate packages, but we are
> moving away from such "monolithic" mega-packages like the old MSYS DTK.

The problem is that the 'Files' on SF is a real mess. I've been using
MSYS/MinGWfor several years and i am still lost with all those packages.
There are several packages with the same names (autoconf, automake,
etc... within 'msys' or 'mingw' in their names), sometimes with the same
version (bzip2). A newcomer would be certainly a lot more lost than me.

Such monolithic approach has his drawbacks, but it has an advantage: it's
easy for users to install the components they want.

> Eventually a new installer program will be available that will enable
> you to easily download and install of these smaller components
> (currently, your only recourse is a painful manual process).

Exactly. It's a pain.

Vincent Torri

> The new installer may (or may not) have a "MSYS DTK" ``profile'' that
> would, with one click, install all of the components of the original
> DTK. Dunno.
>
> --
> Chuck
>
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Re: is a new MSYS DTK planned ?

Charles Wilson-8
Vincent Torri wrote:
> The problem is that the 'Files' on SF is a real mess. I've been using
> MSYS/MinGWfor several years and i am still lost with all those packages.
> There are several packages with the same names (autoconf, automake,
> etc... within 'msys' or 'mingw' in their names), sometimes with the same
> version (bzip2). A newcomer would be certainly a lot more lost than me.

I posted a summary of "what you need" to the mingw list last week. When
I get enough 'tuits, I'll turn that into a wiki page.
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnu.mingw.user/30819

As far as understanding what the names of the various packages "means",
see this:
http://www.mingw.org/PackageIdentificationHOWTO

> Such monolithic approach has his drawbacks, but it has an advantage: it's
> easy for users to install the components they want.

And, all of the components they may not want -- they get exactly what
Earnie decided should be in the "MSYS DTK" over seven years ago.

Yes, things are a bit of a mess right now. We're trying to make things
better, but it's going to take a while. For a semi-automated script that
handles some of what you want, as a temporary workaround, see:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnu.mingw.user/30854

--
Chuck

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Re: is a new MSYS DTK planned ?

Vincent Torri-2


On Sun, 27 Sep 2009, Charles Wilson wrote:

> Vincent Torri wrote:
>> The problem is that the 'Files' on SF is a real mess. I've been using
>> MSYS/MinGWfor several years and i am still lost with all those packages.
>> There are several packages with the same names (autoconf, automake,
>> etc... within 'msys' or 'mingw' in their names), sometimes with the same
>> version (bzip2). A newcomer would be certainly a lot more lost than me.
>
> I posted a summary of "what you need" to the mingw list last week. When
> I get enough 'tuits, I'll turn that into a wiki page.
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnu.mingw.user/30819
>
> As far as understanding what the names of the various packages "means",
> see this:
> http://www.mingw.org/PackageIdentificationHOWTO

i still don't understand why there is a need to have 2 packages for, eg,
bzip2. bzip2 should be used with MSYS only. So the mingw part is useless
(imho). There are, also, completely outdated versions of the autotools eg.
Why keeping them ?

>> Such monolithic approach has his drawbacks, but it has an advantage: it's
>> easy for users to install the components they want.
>
> And, all of the components they may not want --

I prefer having more than not enough. And seriously, the amount of space
taken by these small tools is ridiculously small compared to the size of
hard disks sold nowadays.

> they get exactly what
> Earnie decided should be in the "MSYS DTK" over seven years ago.

That's another problem. To have a new version, one should wait *years*.
Since i use MSYS/MinGW, i prefer now trying to compile what i want myself
rather than waiting that the version i want arrives in SF.

> Yes, things are a bit of a mess right now. We're trying to make things
> better, but it's going to take a while. For a semi-automated script that
> handles some of what you want, as a temporary workaround, see:
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnu.mingw.user/30854

What i don't understand is what you did for the MinGW automated script is
not done for MSYS. There is a list of tools that can be chosen when the
installer is run. The user choses (some of) them and the installer
download them, untar them and copy them.

Vincent Torri

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Re: is a new MSYS DTK planned ?

Keith Marshall-3
On Sunday 27 September 2009 20:14:44 Vincent Torri wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Sep 2009, Charles Wilson wrote:
> > Vincent Torri wrote:
> >> The problem is that the 'Files' on SF is a real mess.

And that's mostly because SF keep moving the goal posts.

> i still don't understand why there is a need to have 2 packages
> for, eg, bzip2. bzip2 should be used with MSYS only.

Not so...

> So the mingw part is useless (imho).

Well, the mingw32 build of bzip2 is there because I needed the native
library build for mingw-get, (the new installer Chuck mentioned).  
You get the rest as a side effect of building the library, but the
modular packaging allows you to choose whether or not to deploy
those components you may not need.

The MSYS build is there because Chuck, (and the other developers of
MSYS), need it for their packages.

> There are, also, completely outdated
> versions of the autotools eg. Why keeping them ?

Mainly because SF never throws anything away, even when it has become
obsolete.  Yes, the download site could benefit from reorganisation,
but we are all reluctant to embark on that exercise, given SF's
penchant for messing it up again, with yet another unilaterally
imposed change in site design.

> >> Such monolithic approach has his drawbacks, but it has an
> >> advantage: it's easy for users to install the components they
> >> want.
> >
> > And, all of the components they may not want --
>
> I prefer having more than not enough. And seriously, the amount of
> space taken by these small tools is ridiculously small compared to
> the size of hard disks sold nowadays.
>
> > they get exactly what
> > Earnie decided should be in the "MSYS DTK" over seven years ago.
>
> That's another problem. To have a new version, one should wait
> *years*.

And for as long as you demand monolithic package collections, you
will be obliged to wait all those years between releases.  The most
significant benefit of the modular approach is that individual
packages get updated much more frequently, or...

> Since i use MSYS/MinGW, i prefer now trying to compile
> what i want myself rather than waiting that the version i want
> arrives in SF.

...you have to keep the individual packages up to date, all by
yourself, (and not everyone wants to become an MSYS developer).

> > Yes, things are a bit of a mess right now. We're trying to make
> > things better, but it's going to take a while. For a
> > semi-automated script that handles some of what you want, as a
> > temporary workaround, see:
> > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnu.mingw.user/30854
>
> What i don't understand is what you did for the MinGW automated
> script is not done for MSYS.

There is no one maintaining the Automated MinGW Installer; it still
gives you GCC-3.4.5, and that's how it's going to stay, given its
unmaintained state, even though GCC-4.4.0 has been available for
some time now.

We all recognise that mingw-get is the future for both MinGW and MSYS
distribution; it will give you the package choice you ask for, but
every hour I spend following up demands to "add this feature to
MinGW-5.1", (or to create a similarly deficient installer for MSYS),
is an extra hour's delay in the eventual availability of mingw-get.

--

Regards,
Keith.

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Re: is a new MSYS DTK planned ?

Vincent Torri-2


On Sun, 27 Sep 2009, Keith Marshall wrote:

>> So the mingw part is useless (imho).
>
> Well, the mingw32 build of bzip2 is there because I needed the native
> library build for mingw-get, (the new installer Chuck mentioned).
> You get the rest as a side effect of building the library, but the
> modular packaging allows you to choose whether or not to deploy
> those components you may not need.
>
> The MSYS build is there because Chuck, (and the other developers of
> MSYS), need it for their packages.
>
>> There are, also, completely outdated
>> versions of the autotools eg. Why keeping them ?
>
> Mainly because SF never throws anything away, even when it has become
> obsolete.  Yes, the download site could benefit from reorganisation,
> but we are all reluctant to embark on that exercise, given SF's
> penchant for messing it up again, with yet another unilaterally
> imposed change in site design.

isn't there something better than SF for files hosting ?

>> I prefer having more than not enough. And seriously, the amount of
>> space taken by these small tools is ridiculously small compared to
>> the size of hard disks sold nowadays.
>>
>>> they get exactly what
>>> Earnie decided should be in the "MSYS DTK" over seven years ago.
>>
>> That's another problem. To have a new version, one should wait
>> *years*.
>
> And for as long as you demand monolithic package collections,

I don't exactly demand a monolithic installer. I demand an installer,
something simple, that can install what i need when I port linux libs/apps
to Windows. Monolithic or not, it's up to you.

> you
> will be obliged to wait all those years between releases.  The most
> significant benefit of the modular approach is that individual
> packages get updated much more frequently, or...
>
>> Since i use MSYS/MinGW, i prefer now trying to compile
>> what i want myself rather than waiting that the version i want
>> arrives in SF.
>
> ...you have to keep the individual packages up to date, all by
> yourself, (and not everyone wants to become an MSYS developer).

yes, that's what i do. For now, it's the best solution for me wrt what is
SF Files section and wrt what I need.

>> What i don't understand is what you did for the MinGW automated
>> script is not done for MSYS.
>
> There is no one maintaining the Automated MinGW Installer; it still
> gives you GCC-3.4.5, and that's how it's going to stay, given its
> unmaintained state, even though GCC-4.4.0 has been available for
> some time now.
>
> We all recognise that mingw-get is the future for both MinGW and MSYS
> distribution; it will give you the package choice you ask for, but
> every hour I spend following up demands to "add this feature to
> MinGW-5.1", (or to create a similarly deficient installer for MSYS),
> is an extra hour's delay in the eventual availability of mingw-get.

I don't understand, then. If mingw-get is what is the best solution for
now, just say that "MinGW-5.1.6 is the last one, it will be deprecated
soon by mingw-get" and don't loose time on it anymore. Sometimes, you
have to take decisions in order for things to move on.

Vincent Torri

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Re: is a new MSYS DTK planned ?

Keith Marshall-3
On Sunday 27 September 2009 21:33:42 Vincent Torri wrote:

> > We all recognise that mingw-get is the future for both MinGW and
> > MSYS distribution; it will give you the package choice you ask
> > for, but every hour I spend following up demands to "add this
> > feature to MinGW-5.1", (or to create a similarly deficient
> > installer for MSYS), is an extra hour's delay in the eventual
> > availability of mingw-get.
>
> I don't understand, then. If mingw-get is what is the best
> solution for now, just say that "MinGW-5.1.6 is the last one, it
> will be deprecated soon by mingw-get" and don't loose time on it
> anymore. Sometimes, you have to take decisions in order for things
> to move on.

That's exactly what I did say, on the tracker ticket which led to the
release of MinGW-5.1.6.  We had to release 5.1.6 because the new
standard for modular packaging broke 5.1.4, and 5.1.5, (which was
intended to correct that), exposed a fatal bug which had been
introduced in 5.1.4, but somehow gone unnoticed.

--

Regards,
Keith.

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